He had to sell for 2% or 3% of the value of his shares<\/a>, his bank, because on Instagram, he said that they should stop the war immediately. That was it. That is the example of a centralized regime. I am a good example of a d ecentralized regime, because all my assets are in crypto, on the web. There is nothing the government can do to me. There is no censorship.<\/p>\nI am going to ask you this question, and it might be a horrible OpSec for you to answer, but I am asking it anyway.<\/strong><\/p>\nGo for it.<\/p>\n
You keep talking about how your assets are on the web. Do you have a custodial wallet somewhere that someone else is holding your crypto for you?<\/strong><\/p>\nNo no no. We have our own custody solution. It is multi-sig, and there is not just one. There are a couple and they are geographically spread out, and there are different protocols for every single wallet. Then, there are different currencies, which are stored differently. As I told you, I have been with crypto since 2013.<\/p>\n
Well, you are a special case. I think if you are a regular Ukrainian citizen, it would seem tempting to move all your assets into crypto, and then maybe set up with Kuna Exchange, have Kuna Exchange hold your assets, and then get out of the country. That is a level of risk that I would say is still very high for an average person.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n
\u201cDo not store your crypto with me, because it is not your crypto. It is my crypto.\u201d<\/q><\/aside>\n<\/div>\nYes, it is. I am the only founder of the exchange that tells my clients, \u201cGuys, do not store your crypto with me, because it is not your crypto. It is my crypto.\u201d You have the blessing by God that Satoshi Nakamoto came up with the Bitcoin, and you can store your crypto on your wallet, with your private key. So go and do it. <\/p>\n
That is why I publish quite regularly, probably once a month or so, a step-by-step tutorial, how to set up a wallet on your phone, how to properly store your seed phrases, how to set up Trezor, Ledger, how to create it differently on the computer and run a full Bitcoin node, and how to use Electrum. <\/p>\n
All that stuff I am advocating for. I think that is only the future, because in other cases, you are just taking risks from the bank and giving to the other guy, which is kind of stupid. Do not trust any exchange, not even mine, guys. I am centralized. Until we are a decentralized exchange (DEX), even if we are DEX, there is still some risk, as history shows us. I think private keys are the only way forward. In that case, you are fully decentralized and you can tell pretty much any government \u2014 if it is not the US \u2014 to go and … I don\u2019t want to swear.<\/p>\n
You can swear on this show, especially in your situation. Swear away. So far, we have made a lot of jokes about the 30-kilo bag of cash that you might have to have. That is very risky. Someone might come and get you.<\/strong><\/p>\nIt\u2019s heavy.<\/p>\n
It is heavy, right? The smallest part of the risk is someone could come and take it from you. If you actually make the bag way lighter, and you put all the crypto on your phone, then custody it, your risk is still very high. Someone could come and hurt you, and take your phone. Now they do not have to carry a heavy bag, they just have your phone. How do you balance all those risks? <\/strong><\/p>\nTo me, one of the big benefits of having a bank and a semi-functional American government is that there isn\u2019t any cash in my house. I do not think that anyone is going to come and try to take the cash out of my house, because there is none here. There is like $20 here.<\/strong><\/p>\nTwo answers. The first one with self-custody. First of all, never keep your crypto on the phone that you are using on a daily basis. It has to be a separate device. The pneumonic phrase has to be written down on like three pieces of paper. Then these three pieces of paper should be stored in safe locations, in totally different geographic locations. It is ideal even to have it on different continents. <\/p>\n
There are a lot of ways you can do it, but obviously, 99% of the people would never do that because they are lazy. Some of them are even stupid. For them, there will always be a centralized agent that would help or do it for them. That is the truth of life. <\/p>\n
At least for the smart, cautious, forward-thinking people there is an alternative, a crypto on your wallet, on your<\/em> wallet, your crypto, with your keys. That is the only way forward. It is on you if you are lazy and willing to take that risk to trust that guy or service, but you do have an alternative.<\/p>\nThis to me is the heart of the future of crypto, in Ukraine or out of Ukraine. People choose banks because they do not want to hold all the money in their house. They choose music streaming services because they do not want to collect all the CDs at their house. People pick convenience, and they outsource security pretty regularly when it comes to computers. <\/strong><\/p>\nI think you are describing a system where, the more we have spoken, the more it feels like the reason people value cryptocurrencies is because dollars are useful currency. Then all of the benefits of having it totally decentralized get recentralized by some actors sometimes. Even if you personally write a lot about how it should be totally decentralized and you custody your own crypto, the services of the third-party custodians of crypto exist. They are growing businesses.<\/strong><\/p>\nWhat is the question?<\/p>\n
Well, I think as we come through this grand change in Ukraine and its relationship to crypto, you are saying all the powerful people in that country are now with it. What is the actual change that has been accomplished, other than some transactions going faster and we are less reliant on a bad banking system?<\/strong><\/p>\nWell, for me, it is freedom. I cannot be free with a bank account, especially if I come from a developing country. In developed countries, it is also a risk. I mean, if you go crazy in your position to the US government, they are most likely to impose sanctions on you, and block your accounts and assets. <\/p>\n
If we look at what happened with the Russians, it is a good example of how the centralized system can behave for pretty much anyone in this world. Putin is a public figure. All the sanctioned lists are public figures, but we totally understand that this is possible. You can block anyone\u2019s asset in pretty much any part of the world. There is no other solution or alternative apart from crypto. For me, it is quite obvious and self-explanatory.<\/p>\n
I think it is a fascinating thing that is happening there with crypto. You have talked a lot about how the next generation of the government might work with crypto, how there might be a DAO that enhances or supersedes the government. How do you think that would play out?<\/strong><\/p>\nI have a different plan. I am a bit tired of the government this year, with the National Bank as well.<\/p>\n
It hasn\u2019t come through. I have to say Michael, your frustration with the National Bank has not been obvious over the last hour.<\/strong><\/p>\nI mean, it is a war and they are blocking the means by which we could sell Bitcoin for hryvnia for the crypto exchanges in Ukraine now, because they are so scared, motherfuckers. I am tired of trying to change someone in the government or the whole of the government.<\/p>\n
Considering that so many people are in crypto right now, it is my guess that people who use crypto \u2014 or at least someone close to them use cryptos \u2014 know about it really well. That is probably 10 million people in Ukraine right now, out of 35 million in total. A third of the country definitely knows that crypto is something good, that it is meaningful, you can use it, and it is much better than any government or commercial bank alternative.<\/p>\n
I would like to use this momentum when rebuilding Ukraine once the war has finished. Instead of rebuilding an old, bad copy of a democratic society like Europe or the US \u2014 instead of being a bad, ugly copy of the capitalist market of the US \u2014 why don\u2019t we just propose a DAO Ukraine? There will be no president, and there will be no prime minister. If I will just paint the picture, it will be a government similar to Switzerland, where there are a lot of federations. There is no centralized body which takes care of the whole country. <\/p>\n
It will be based on the blockchain instead of traditional centralized systems. You are going to have a digital currency without a national bank. You can use these currency or governance tokens to directly vote for some changes in your government, or you can delegate or stake these tokens to someone who you trust in a specific question. We do not need Parliament or Senate or Congress or any other elections. We do not need the president. We do not need the IRS or the tax service, because we can implement smart contracts which would deduct automatically the taxes that go to the local government. Everything will be transparent. The good news is the technology is here, so we can already do it.<\/p>\n
This is the topic of my discussion for the past three months. This is what I am building right now. I want to create the first crypto state. We are going to have some kind of passport or ID of this crypto state, and will be open to the crypto guys. It will be open to libertarians. <\/p>\n
The way we are going to do it is we will start rolling out so-called government services, just for ease of understanding for all the regular people. With these rollouts, more and more people will be coming on board with crypto. As I said, it is now 10 million, and tomorrow it could be 20 million. At a certain point of time in the future, we are going to see that most of the services are already on a blockchain and we have no need for a traditional government.<\/p>\n
What is the government service you can put on a blockchain right now?<\/strong><\/p>\nThe first service is the tax system. We can implement smart contracts, which would automatically deduct 2% from any commercial transaction. We can create wallets for the merchants and for the people. It could be different wallets. It could be the rules of how the tax system works. We can save a couple of billion hryvnia on just the budget of the tax service. <\/p>\n
The second government service is public money. That is a blockchain. That is the easiest thing to do. The good news is we would be able, as a government or country, to evenly distribute tokens to every single citizen of Ukraine. It would be mathematically very viable that only the citizens receive and that they did receive because I have the public keys of pretty much everyone in the country.<\/p>\n
How would you prevent a standard DAO governance attack at that moment? If you are the Russian government and you see Michael setting up Crypto Ukraine and it is going to be a DAO, you would take the entire Internet Research Agency \u2014 which right now attacks the United States by making Facebook memes \u2014 and convert it. And you would say \u201cWe are going to do a governance attack on the Ukraine DAO and somehow take over the Ukrainian government. We are going to buy all the tokens and stake them all to Vladimir Putin.\u201d We see governance attacks on DAOs left and right. How would you prevent that?<\/strong><\/p>\nGood question. I do not have answers to every single question. I am proposing a choice, because there are no other alternatives. <\/p>\n
The current government, they just want to rebuild everything that was destroyed, even the government system. It is dead, it is useless. The current system showed me that if not for the US or Europe, Russia would have taken over Ukraine and millions of people would be dead already. Our government did not prepare for the war, because it was so corrupt and it was so shit. We have nothing to lose. Even physically we have nothing to lose, because a lot of cities are just wiped out. What is the point of rebuilding old if we can build new? That is my proposition. <\/p>\n
I do not have the answer to every single question. The purpose of today is to actually raise the awareness that it is possible in Ukraine. It is an ideal place to do it because so many people are involved and so many top government officials are really pro-crypto now. They have crypto as well. So we can do it. <\/p>\n
Why not just try it and experiment? I do not know whether it is going to be good or bad, or what the outcome of it is, but at least we are giving a choice and we are trying. If we succeed, great, we can copy it to other countries. If we fail, at least we tried. That is my point. If you want to join, just help us out. Let\u2019s do it together. The first crypto state. There\u2019s no government opposition at the moment in Ukraine.<\/p>\n
One of my jokes on the show all the time is that every DAO hits a fatal point when it tries to interact with reality. DAOs are great when you are moving bits around a database, because the smart contracts can execute and people can see it. Then when you have to take custody of a physical item, which many DAOs have tried to do, you realize, \u201cOkay, one guy has to have the painting, and one guy has to go shovel the driveway.\u201d The DAO has to make somebody do something. That is usually where they hit a pretty big crisis moment. How would your crypto state shovel the roads when it snows, or fight fires? Who would be in charge of making those things happen?<\/strong><\/p>\nYou probably didn\u2019t get me. So I will repeat with different words.<\/p>\n
Okay.<\/strong><\/p>\nWe are the first country in the world where crypto guys have enough power to take over the whole country. Is that clear?<\/p>\n
That is clear.<\/strong><\/p>\nThat is what I\u2019m saying. With a little help, we can do it. It will be the first crypto state. It will not be like what is happening in El Salvador, which seems crippled. I am just saying that we could be the first crypto state in a DAO. Don\u2019t call it DAO if you have bad feelings for the DAO.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s not that I have bad feelings with DAO. It is that my history with covering DAOs is that when DAOs talk about bits, they do great and when they talk about atoms, they tend to fall apart.<\/strong><\/p>\nWe can do it. There is no opposition. There is not any single one, especially special forces or the guys with the guns. They are not going to be against us; they are with us. That is something unique in the world. <\/p>\n
With my experience, nine years and one month in crypto, when we try to approach any government ministry or national bank and say, \u201cLet\u2019s do this on the blockchain. Let\u2019s get rid of this ministry or do that,\u201d there was always opposition from within the government because this is the way the system resists, because any system tries to protect itself. I\u2019m saying that there is no system in Ukraine. We have a lot of political power right now to create the first crypto state. It does not matter which passport you hold right now. I don\u2019t care. If you are for crypto, you are for Ukraine. Welcome. Why not?<\/p>\n
I believe you on all that. You have the political capital, for lack of a better word. You have the opportunity. Have you thought through the execution, that one day you will need to stand up police and firefighters and ambulances just to do the basics of government in a community?<\/strong><\/p>\nThere will be police. What else do we need? Fire service. There will probably be an army. <\/p>\n
But what if the members of the DAO choose to take all the money away from the fire?<\/strong><\/p>\nThat\u2019s stupid. Why?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know. What would be the control to make sure that doesn\u2019t happen? You would not be the king of the country, so you cannot just say that it is stupid.<\/strong><\/p>\nOkay. Good point. Again, it would be decentralized. Who says that it has to be one big DAO? It could be brought down to the level of the city or it could be brought down to the area of a neighborhood. That is why I said Switzerland is a good example, because here everything is decentralized. Each city has its own citizens and they all vote for local changes. It is up to them how they spend their budget and who they choose as their mayor. <\/p>\n
There will be someone, but he will be chosen transparently. At any time the vote can be taken away and we can choose a new mayor. That is a problem that we have right now with the presidents and prime minister. During the elections, they promise a lot of stuff and then nothing happens and you do not have any means to take your vote back and choose the other guy. With a blockchain, it\u2019s staking. You unstake your tokens and he will go. He is not the mayor, and you choose a new one. It is how you find consensus among your neighbors.<\/p>\n
Obviously, if you see that you live in a danger zone of massive fires, you are going to use your budget on safety first before you are going to spend it on the rest of the stuff. It will be your money of your neighborhood. It is transparent, without anyone stealing the money, because you can see what is going on. There is no secrecy of how you spend your money, not anything like the Soviet Union where everything was secret. It is possible.<\/p>\n
It is down to architecture. I am definitely not the wisest guy in the world, but I am saying that there is momentum and we have political power. Now we need really smart guys in the world who know exactly how to implement this so-called new government. I don\u2019t know. I will have to find all of these guys or they will find me. Together, we will create something new. We have this opportunity. Why not? Let\u2019s use it.<\/p>\n
That is very exciting. It is also a great place to end it. You have given us so much time. Michael Chobanian, thank you so much for coming on <\/strong>Decoder<\/strong><\/em>.<\/strong><\/p>\nThank you.<\/p>\n\n<\/aside>\n<\/div>\nSource: https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/23138465\/decoder-ukraine-war-cryptocurrency-michael-chobanian-interview-bitcoin-usdt<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Source: The terrible, unprovoked war in Ukraine has destabilized that country\u2019s economy and banking system, leading both Ukrainian politicians and citizens to more seriously consider cryptocurrency. I\u2019m pretty skeptical of crypto, but I want to come by that skepticism honestly, and I want to understand more about what was happening there, so I\u2019ve invited Michael […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":6600,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"pagelayer_contact_templates":[],"_pagelayer_content":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[8],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6599","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-technology"],"yoast_head":"\n
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I\u2019m pretty skeptical of crypto, but I want to come by that skepticism honestly, and I want to understand more about what was happening there, so I\u2019ve invited Michael […]","og_url":"https:\/\/scienceandnerds.com\/2022\/05\/25\/how-ukraines-wide-use-of-cryptocurrency-is-playing-out-during-the-war\/","og_site_name":"Science and Nerds","article_published_time":"2022-05-25T14:50:14+00:00","article_modified_time":"2022-05-25T14:50:16+00:00","og_image":[{"width":1200,"height":628,"url":"https:\/\/scienceandnerds.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/05\/how-ukraines-wide-use-of-cryptocurrency-is-playing-out-during-the-war_628e4226e7b1e.jpeg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"admin","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"admin","Est. reading time":"48 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/scienceandnerds.com\/2022\/05\/25\/how-ukraines-wide-use-of-cryptocurrency-is-playing-out-during-the-war\/","url":"https:\/\/scienceandnerds.com\/2022\/05\/25\/how-ukraines-wide-use-of-cryptocurrency-is-playing-out-during-the-war\/","name":"How Ukraine\u2019s wide use of cryptocurrency is playing out during the war - 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